I remember "playing" progress quest for a few weeks when it first came out. I was moderately engaged, but I think it showed that I'm not this genre's audience. I think D2 and Torchlight 1 were the last two ARPGs that I finished.
The amazing thing about Progress Quest was that people would spend time "playing" it AT ALL. It really made people think about how powerful these sorts of mechanics can be on our brains.
For me, the one benchmark of a good game is one that is still fun to play with all cheats enabled. I think the best way to think about it is that a player running around in god mode should be able to fail, even if they can't die.
>When you get rewards, it should feel like a slot machine. Think about using a slot machine. You press the button. The wheels spin and the ding-ding-ding happens. And you know you're probably going to lose. But you're still gripped, because you know there's a small chance of something great happening.
>That's how to structure giving loot. Don't give a Diablo 4-style constant drip of trash and tedious sorting through junk. Only have a few moments where the player can get an improvement. But have those moments be clear and suspenseful. Then have that improvement, when it finally appears, be substantial. The player has to FEEL it.
Well, now you're just describing Genshin Impact.
But jokes aside, Genshin and other Mihoyo games, are everything that Diablo 4 aspires to be.
They have variety of the encounters, biomes and enemies. They have so many different characters you could play in different combinations (of course, you have valid meta, but developers often add new characters that spice things up). They *nail* the gambling part — the entire getting new character sequence is so bright and beautiful and full of anticipation. And they do make you feel powerful, but I think they are less about power fantasy and more about spending time with cute characters in vibrant world fantasy.
I've been playing computer RPGs for a long time. The first one that really drew me in was Sacred Armour of Antiriad on the C64 (ask your grandad), more of an arcade platformer than an RPG, but it was a proto-RPG at heart. Then came Faery Tale on the Amiga 500, which I still think about today. That was a helluva game.
Skip forward a few years; the original Exile on my Quadra 600, then the Infinity Engine games on PPC, and finally WoW, all of which I'm still playing. But the RPG which has stuck with me the most is probably something you've never heard of: Yipe 5 on iOS (and no, it won't work on modern phones). It's so much fun, and on the phone, so a great time killer for a few minutes (or hours). An absolute blast, for the reasons Jeff outlines above. A gem of a game.
I just found the stupidest nostalgic “numbers go up” IOS game (from a FB ad!?) and joined a guild where someone else said he spent $100s on his combat points - I have to stop playing I think, but it’s crazy how even in 2023 the same hooks can hook.
“And if an ability is a bit too strong and the players like it lot? Keep it in! It doesn't matter! It's just a video game!”
I wish more developers adhered to this. That said…
If “balance” is intended to be meticulously weighed due to it being a specific selling point, it’s easier to justify dumping over-powered abilities. A multiplayer game where not playing to the meta (or at least some reasonable facsimile) threatens to significantly bring everyone else down around you, is going to merit more ability parity. And in general, too skewed balance can leave your game with two play styles – exploit the system, or do it "wrong."
A more insidious “justification” for breaking the player’s favorite toys, though, comes from games where new content is provided at a regular rate/basis. This comes with a minimum expectation of “engagement,” and trying to ensure that the new content “lasts” long enough. If a particular power or synergy is skewing those numbers too acutely, a developer shacked to metrics charts may be compelled to game their game to ensure that their new content “lasts long enough.”
Thing is, no one, now matter how many A’s their studio is rated at, can hope to produce content at any kind of rate approaching what a devoted fan-base will devour. It is simply not possible. And the worst thing about such thinking is simply content isn’t “consumed” once completed. It’s “consumed’ once a player decides they don’t care to play through it again. Making sure content “takes a minimum amount of time to do” will only make it tedious and unenticing for replaying. Thus, even a game with semi-regular updates designed to maintain a playerbase long term should prioritize … basically everything you just said.
Sprawling single player epic, MMO’s major patch, or an ARPGs seasonal content, the keys to making a good, rewarding RPG still stand.
"Unexpected hordes. Minibosses. Multiple minibosses. A few creatures with unique and deadly attacks. Restrictive terrain. This is a chance for designers to have fun."
Every dungeon in Queen's Wish captures this perfectly. I am an unrepentant reloader, but the game is still a fantastic challenge because you have to make it through the dungeon in one go if you don't want to miss out on the bonus encounters and loot (which I am compulsively prohibited from doing). It brings me back to when I first played games like Nethergate and Avernum as a kid and desperately tried to find a safe place to rest in the depths of the Goblin Pits so I could clear the next set of rooms, because I didn't realize I could walk the party out of there, rest, rearm and return.
I remember "playing" progress quest for a few weeks when it first came out. I was moderately engaged, but I think it showed that I'm not this genre's audience. I think D2 and Torchlight 1 were the last two ARPGs that I finished.
The amazing thing about Progress Quest was that people would spend time "playing" it AT ALL. It really made people think about how powerful these sorts of mechanics can be on our brains.
For me, the one benchmark of a good game is one that is still fun to play with all cheats enabled. I think the best way to think about it is that a player running around in god mode should be able to fail, even if they can't die.
>When you get rewards, it should feel like a slot machine. Think about using a slot machine. You press the button. The wheels spin and the ding-ding-ding happens. And you know you're probably going to lose. But you're still gripped, because you know there's a small chance of something great happening.
>That's how to structure giving loot. Don't give a Diablo 4-style constant drip of trash and tedious sorting through junk. Only have a few moments where the player can get an improvement. But have those moments be clear and suspenseful. Then have that improvement, when it finally appears, be substantial. The player has to FEEL it.
Well, now you're just describing Genshin Impact.
But jokes aside, Genshin and other Mihoyo games, are everything that Diablo 4 aspires to be.
They have variety of the encounters, biomes and enemies. They have so many different characters you could play in different combinations (of course, you have valid meta, but developers often add new characters that spice things up). They *nail* the gambling part — the entire getting new character sequence is so bright and beautiful and full of anticipation. And they do make you feel powerful, but I think they are less about power fantasy and more about spending time with cute characters in vibrant world fantasy.
I've been playing computer RPGs for a long time. The first one that really drew me in was Sacred Armour of Antiriad on the C64 (ask your grandad), more of an arcade platformer than an RPG, but it was a proto-RPG at heart. Then came Faery Tale on the Amiga 500, which I still think about today. That was a helluva game.
Skip forward a few years; the original Exile on my Quadra 600, then the Infinity Engine games on PPC, and finally WoW, all of which I'm still playing. But the RPG which has stuck with me the most is probably something you've never heard of: Yipe 5 on iOS (and no, it won't work on modern phones). It's so much fun, and on the phone, so a great time killer for a few minutes (or hours). An absolute blast, for the reasons Jeff outlines above. A gem of a game.
I just found the stupidest nostalgic “numbers go up” IOS game (from a FB ad!?) and joined a guild where someone else said he spent $100s on his combat points - I have to stop playing I think, but it’s crazy how even in 2023 the same hooks can hook.
“And if an ability is a bit too strong and the players like it lot? Keep it in! It doesn't matter! It's just a video game!”
I wish more developers adhered to this. That said…
If “balance” is intended to be meticulously weighed due to it being a specific selling point, it’s easier to justify dumping over-powered abilities. A multiplayer game where not playing to the meta (or at least some reasonable facsimile) threatens to significantly bring everyone else down around you, is going to merit more ability parity. And in general, too skewed balance can leave your game with two play styles – exploit the system, or do it "wrong."
A more insidious “justification” for breaking the player’s favorite toys, though, comes from games where new content is provided at a regular rate/basis. This comes with a minimum expectation of “engagement,” and trying to ensure that the new content “lasts” long enough. If a particular power or synergy is skewing those numbers too acutely, a developer shacked to metrics charts may be compelled to game their game to ensure that their new content “lasts long enough.”
Thing is, no one, now matter how many A’s their studio is rated at, can hope to produce content at any kind of rate approaching what a devoted fan-base will devour. It is simply not possible. And the worst thing about such thinking is simply content isn’t “consumed” once completed. It’s “consumed’ once a player decides they don’t care to play through it again. Making sure content “takes a minimum amount of time to do” will only make it tedious and unenticing for replaying. Thus, even a game with semi-regular updates designed to maintain a playerbase long term should prioritize … basically everything you just said.
Sprawling single player epic, MMO’s major patch, or an ARPGs seasonal content, the keys to making a good, rewarding RPG still stand.
"Unexpected hordes. Minibosses. Multiple minibosses. A few creatures with unique and deadly attacks. Restrictive terrain. This is a chance for designers to have fun."
Every dungeon in Queen's Wish captures this perfectly. I am an unrepentant reloader, but the game is still a fantastic challenge because you have to make it through the dungeon in one go if you don't want to miss out on the bonus encounters and loot (which I am compulsively prohibited from doing). It brings me back to when I first played games like Nethergate and Avernum as a kid and desperately tried to find a safe place to rest in the depths of the Goblin Pits so I could clear the next set of rooms, because I didn't realize I could walk the party out of there, rest, rearm and return.
This has always been our main selling point. I can't have top-shelf graphics and production, but design is cheap.